Born Out of Love: Two Filipinos Dads, an Egg Donor, a Surrogate, a NICU Baby & a $200,000 Commitment

Creating a family doesn’t look a certain way. Which is why in today’s episode we have Mark and Jeff Angeles share their unique journey of creating their family especially being in a same sex marriage.
Mark is an HIR Director and Jeff is a doctor, board certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatric Medicine, and Hospice & Palliative Medicine. They spent over $160,000 in making their family, in other words, creating their daughter, Margo.
Their story is with filled endless possibilities, pride of their humble Filipino upbringing, resources around surrogacy and even how to navigate the legalities that same-sex couples have to face when making a baby.
They provide so much detail and share why they want to inspire others or at least people who are in this journey of family making and know you can ‘experience the ups and downs of being a parent and all the good things it brings into you life’.

PS: We had some first-time-podcast growing pains, in other words technical glitches. However, by the power of storytelling, we improvised at the end of the episode so you get to be apart of the authenticity with some laughs, teary eyes and dropped calls. 

Check out their Good Morning America segment and article on how they created their family by getting into debt safely and some tips they share: 
https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/living/video/debt-safely-76807599

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/living/story/couple-100000-loan-start-family-shares-planned-debt-76803398

They are also featured in Business Insider where they share how money was never really talked about in their Filipino upbringing but as a couple they were able to create a new and empowering conversion around money to create their dream family:

https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/gay-couple-ivf-loan-conversation-2022-6

Same-sex couple and surrogacy resources that Mark & Jeff provided in the episode.

https://www.sofi.com/

https://menhavingbabies.com/

https://www.samelovesurrogacy.com/


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Transcript

Brandy Breth: [00:00:00] So that's a good segue. Flo is saying how she's interested to know your journey. I know your journey, of course, . Mm-hmm. . Well, 

Flo Speakman: honestly, I really do think it's just how did the whole thing start? At what point in your relationship did you guys decide, Oh, we have to have a baby. Like it's, it's time for us to, to start 

Brandy Breth: our family.

That's a good idea. Well, part of, well before you say that part of, One thing I love about when you have your articles, and we'll have that up on the website and the podcast site mm-hmm. is, um, that you shared. , uh, even the, the reality that you were getting, that you got married mm-hmm. and not just getting married but then having a family.

Right. So why don't, Can we start with that then too? Like even just like how long you were married and then you decided to have a baby. 

Mark Angeles: Yeah, I think that's a great way to start. Cuz you know, what comes to mind for me is 2015 and, uh, gay marriage was legalized in the United States that. And for us, [00:01:00] uh, we got, we got married in 2015, 2015, and, uh, it was cementing our place in America in some ways.

It allowed us the freedom to think more broadly about what we wanted to do with our life and our legacy. Right. And, um, so Jeff and I met in 2011. Mm-hmm. , um, in New York City. Jeff had been working there for several years and I had moved there for the second time to start a job. That's where, where it all started.

And, and, um, we got engaged a couple years later. Um, And again, like in when, when we had the opportunity to get married and plan for our marriage and then, and the big day came, um, [00:02:00] It really allowed us to, to think, Okay, what's next? I think for both of us, family is so important. We had so much love to give.

You know, we have two dogs. We, we are very, we are very active in the community, whether it be church or Filipino American communities. Were very family oriented. I think that kind of, that's where the discussion really started. 

Jeff Angeles: Yeah. And then I think things kind of got, um, about a year later we moved into our house.

Um, and so we're like, Okay, well now we have a house, a physical home, but what does really home mean? And, you know, it was like a crossroad. Like, you know, we, we thought about, um, you know, can we, we start thinking about. Building a family, like having a child and after a [00:03:00] year of, of just being married, I think what really does home mean?

And it really is about family. And I think for us, you know, we, at that point we felt that, okay, well. Maybe we should look into it seriously at that point. You know how to build a family. You can go through many routes and certainly we wanted to approach it very thoughtfully. We know of couples that you.

Fostering and adopting and then surrogacy. All these different options, you know, I mean, you know, of course biologically, we, neither of us can bur child 

Brandy Breth: yet. Yet. Yeah. Things are happening. Wait until the next other podcast we have, guess we have . Yeah. So when you looked at each other and you're like, Oh, this is how we wanna go, Like what, what it made you decide, this is the route we wanna go creating your family.

Mark Angeles: It was a lot of research and a probably a year of just discussion and meeting other [00:04:00] families. Um, going to info sessions. We looked at everything under the Sun Foster, Foster to adopt, um, private adoption, 

Jeff Angeles: adoption, international 

Mark Angeles: adoption, surrogacy. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. We're, and we, you know, we're trying to figure out.

There's a balance of a number of components from, you know, what's most important to you and, and how you want to build your family, obviously. But then there's, you know, a financial component and there's a time component and there's a, you know, source component of how many people you need to get involved.

And each one of those routes, you know, there's a different. Set of, uh, factors you need to con, you need to consider. So I think for us, when we weighed everything out, um, the path of surrogacy spoke 

Flo Speakman: [00:05:00] was, was, was surrogacy the right decision for, for you guys because of the biological component? Because the baby would be biologically related to one of.

Was that one of the deciding 

Jeff Angeles: factors? I think that was one of the factors we considered. You know, we did, since we did explore all the different ways of, of, of growing our family, we weighed the pros and cons of each one. I think, you know, with surrogacy, I think that was one of the factors we considered the biological connection.

I think growing up, Felt like I always wanted to be a dad and, you know, it was for, you know, for I think for my parents to, to, to have a grandchild. I never really thought that it would be possible, you know, growing up in the Philippines and, you know, like getting married and starting a family was just not something that I, I thought it would be possible.

Mm-hmm. all my most of my life until coming to America and meeting Mark and through our journey. That this dream was [00:06:00] realized, but it wasn't the, the end all and be all of mm-hmm. the decision. Um, I think we just thought that weighing all the pros and cons, that surrogacy was just the right path for us.

Mark Angeles: Yeah. And I would add to that, that when we talk about. Being biologically connected to the child in the traditional sense. I, I, I think it's important in surrogacy and especially as a same sex couple, to be able to define what that means in the reality of having a child. And so I think, yeah, we are saying that.

Being biologically connected to the child was a factor, but not because we wanted the same blood flowing in our veins. Mm-hmm. more so because things like the legalities when you have a biological child Oh wow. Allow you to have instant rights to the child. Right. Yeah. So, um, you know, [00:07:00] As many people know, if you go down foster to adoption, there's always a possibility that the child will be reunited with the birth mom.

Mm-hmm. . There's also the idea of potentially traveling from state to state or country to country, and if you are not biologically connected to a child, there's. There's some same sex. Wow. As next couple. There's some greatness idea. 

Brandy Breth: Right. That is amazing for our listeners to learn about. Mm-hmm. And our viewers even I just learned that.

Did you know 

Flo Speakman: like you I did. We actually did because marriage and family law was ancient. Mm-hmm. having a biological attachment to the child means that, that, you know, you can prove it's your 

Brandy Breth: kid. Yeah. Um, the legality of it is, yeah, I mean, I don't, I, Flos says she knew about that I didn't know, and I, and I'm.

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that because that's, a lot of [00:08:00] people are gonna learn about that, that want to dive into this part of either surrogacy or having, having a biological child. Mm-hmm. , I would say. 

Flo Speakman: Mm-hmm. . So, All right. I have a, I have another surrogate question. Can I ask another surrogate question? Sure.

Brandy Breth: Yeah. Shoot. What part? Part of this too, is we're learning, I know I'm learning flow is learning. I, and we say we're not the. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Flo and I are the experts of giving birth our own babies, but we are not the expert at anyone else's experience. Then that's why it's very gracious to you guys to share and have us even language and lingo like things that, I don't even know how to say it cause I'm your friend and I would be like, So who sperm did you decide to have?

Yeah, but how you say is who decided to be the biological bear? ? Yes. 

Flo Speakman: I dunno. Either one works as far as I'm looking. Um, You go ahead. Flow. Yeah. The sury piece of it, right? Because there's, you brought up the legality part of it and there are some places in the world. I know that the surrogate has to sign [00:09:00] off cuz the surrogate may not be, Was your surrogate also the biological mother or was it c You did 

Brandy Breth: ivf, right?

Yeah. So I learned that IVF 

Flo Speakman: with a, with a donor egg, 

Mark Angeles: we like to say. And we're preparing what the conversation with Margo's gonna look like, right? As she mm-hmm. gets older and wants to know how she came about and, and how we grew our family. One of the things that I picked up on while we were doing our research and talking to different couples is that, you know, the way I think about it is there are people that help.

The baby In our situation, there are people that helped make Margo, and then there are people that raise Margo, right? And so, um, the team that's needed to make Margo is a sperm donor. Then we have an egg donor, and then we have a surrogate who carries the baby. [00:10:00] And when you go through surrogacy, Again, kind of going back to the legality of it, it is a cleaner relationship, if you will.

It's more black and white because the egg donor, or let, let me lemme say it this way. The surrogate is not biologically connected to the child that she's carrying. Hmm. so there's no gray area. Should the surrogate get cold feet midway through, or, you know, uh, she wants to make a decision on the baby that she's carrying Those rights continue to stay directly with the intended.

Yeah, because also what California has done, and also, you know, states like Oregon, I mean, this. We have to keep in mind too that the, the, the approach that we're taking is very specific to the state that we live in here in the us. Like, okay, this is not [00:11:00] allowed in all states across America what we're doing, right?

But this approach of having like the team of three to help make our baby the egg donor is providing a service and there. A transaction agreement, which she gets compensated for providing us with her eggs in making it black and white like that. She relinquish her legal connection. Mm-hmm. who the DNA she's providing.

Right. And so everything is kind of set up within a contract and agreement. What ultimately kind of. is, I guess the main connection that supersedes everything is the intended parents that enter this process, which is us. Mm-hmm. . Got it. We are the names on the birth certificate. If anything were [00:12:00] to happen, we legally have a hundred percent decision making rights.

Yeah. 

Jeff Angeles: And I think with California it's, you know, we're, we're lucky in the sense that the process is very, Sort of like airtight, like, you know, like, because there's a lot of legal protections Wow. For intended parents. So there's a legal contract pertaining to the egg donate donor, like Mark said. Mm-hmm. , we have a legal contract also with our surrogate pertaining to like, you know, she does not claim any parental.

Rights to our child. There's a provision in the contract, and then before Margo was born, we have to go in front of a judge for a pre-birth order. Essentially, the judge signs off and finals that parental rights are shared between Mark and. For our child. Mm-hmm. , no other person essentially can claim parental rights over our child.[00:13:00] 

So I think we went down that route just for the security. As Margo goes up, there won't be any legal sort of challenges or questions about our, our our rights. 

Brandy Breth: I got teary eyed. Aww. When Mark was saying, So Marco, this, there's people that CR made, like helped raised you and then there's people helped. Yeah.

Because I know her. . Yeah. And, um, just knowing that she is, she was made at it so much. Yeah, she 

Mark Angeles: was, Yeah. It's so 

Brandy Breth: intentional, honestly. 

Flo Speakman: Like , right? Well, that's the thing, right? Like this is the most intentional human creation you could possibly have in a lot of ways. Heterosexual, fertile couples. You know, Like, it's like 

Brandy Breth: that's been there done yet, 

Flo Speakman: That's the, That's the most straightforward way, right?

Yeah. But it's also like that's the thing you created of a family with a very serious [00:14:00] financial investment. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , Um, 

Brandy Breth: Hello. You're in with the Segways. Another segueway. That's 

Flo Speakman: what I did. So the, you know, the serious financial investment, the serious emotional investment, the, 

Brandy Breth: the research conversation is very like as real as real can get like the financial, um, Yeah.

You know. Well, that's a good segue if you wanna go into 

Flo Speakman: that too. It's just all of the things that you guys had to do that a heterosexual couple doesn't even think. Right. Mm-hmm. , 

Brandy Breth: we got it after. Usually the baby comes, Oh, , we gotta like pay for 

Flo Speakman: this or this. Right. But, but again, it's also like you didn't have to pay to create the baby 

Brandy Breth: brandy.

No, I know. That's what I'm saying. That's the thing. There's no financial conversation going on. Not, you know, as to extent of mm-hmm. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Mm-hmm. Right. Which is what I'm Right. 

Flo Speakman: It, it literally cost me $500 copay to have my. Right. 

Brandy Breth: I thought you were gonna say it. Cause you how much to make the baby

No. [00:15:00] 500 probate to have a baby was like $0. 

Flo Speakman: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the piece of it that I think is a good education for our firm. Your financial story has been covered a couple times by GMA and, and, um, what was the other, other 

is 

Brandy Breth: this insider article 

Flo Speakman: Insider. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so like if people wanna read about that part of the journey, like they can go read about it.

I mean, I think it's interesting that the absolute methodical approach you guys took was pretty awesome. You know, like, we're gonna make sure we can afford this payment. Right? Yeah. That's pretty awesome. I mean, and that's just smart financial behavior. Yeah. And no matter what, right? Like if, like just in general, not even just surrounding having a baby and I think.

Jeff Angeles: You know, like other, when we're approached by other couples who are thinking about doing like a ESY journey, we're very transparent. They ask us like sort of like ballpark figure in the logistics and mm-hmm. more than happy to like, you know, walk them through. Cuz initially I think that was one of the sort of like [00:16:00] barriers to like pull the trigger to start the process because can we afford this?

Mm-hmm. can we just, can we, can we. Finish this journey without going Yeah. You know, financially under, Can 

Brandy Breth: you share that there's actual loans? Cause again, our listeners and our viewers are gonna wanna be like, this is a part of this is like people, what people don't tell you. Yeah. Like what you don't read in the book.

So what? You just don't hear out in the society. Right? Like there's like loans. I'm just looking at a loan for a house. Y'all looking for a loan for a baby? So it's just like, how does that. How do we keep that conversation? Just normalize it. Does that 

Jeff Angeles: make sense? Right. So when, when we started the journey, we didn't, again, like Mark said, we didn't go into it like blindly.

So we have friends who've gone through the process. We have some idea of like more or less what it will take financially. And we took a look at our finances. I mean, you know, like, I mean, some couples. Lucky, like they have trust funds and they're rich and or their families more than happy. Mm-hmm. , like bank roll, their sort journey.

But we 

Mark Angeles: didn't, we did not grow up Rich , [00:17:00] neither of mine. So that's why the financial diligence before entering it was really important to us because I think both Jeff and I know what it's like to grow up in families where our parents. Paycheck to paycheck, struggling to put food on the table, you know? Um, and so we, we didn't want that for ourselves.

Um, mm-hmm. , our parents did the best that they could and, and they did great. Um, but we always wanted, uh, elevate the experience for the next generation, right? So, yeah. Uh, Yeah, we were very thoughtful about it and, and you know, to go to Brandy's question, if you make it a priority, you, you, you can make things happen, right?

Mm-hmm. , yes, we had to do a lot of saving. Yes, we had to do a lot of budget planning, but there are things like tapping into your 401k. There are things applying for a private loan, which is what we did. So it was not necessarily a lender. That's specialized in supporting surrogacy [00:18:00] journeys, but it was a, It's a lender SoFi plug to SoFi.

This is not sponsored , but SoFi 

Jeff Angeles: I'm sure. Listen, more than happy. I know. Listen to 

Mark Angeles: the podcast. Yeah. SoFi ended up being a lender that we. Stumbled upon and did research on and we were able to apply for a private loan. Yeah. And that you could use, you know, some people use it to pay off their student loans, some people use it to maybe make improvements to home or something like that.

We used it to, Got it. To pay for part of the surrogacy journey. 

Flo Speakman: Um, okay. I can I interrupt you just real quick. Did you actually put that on the loan Applic? 

Mark Angeles: Good. No, no. You don't have to put . 

Flo Speakman: Yeah, that's a great 

Brandy Breth: question. It is 

Flo Speakman: like, did you have to like put that we where? Where 

Brandy Breth: we need those. How do people know what you do through money?

Yeah. Like do they care? What do you care? Like, 

Flo Speakman: Yeah. Probably didn't care. But yeah. It's more 

Mark Angeles: obviously your ability to pay it back, your credit score and all of, Yeah. [00:19:00] History of taking money out and being able to pay it back, but they didn't. Those details as maybe, I think if you go to a, if you walked into like a bank and you know, a bank, yeah.

They might ask, you know, what are you using this money for? Yeah. But also just to kind of, um, again, go back to Brandy's question. Um, there are resources and organizations out there that will. Provide grants or essentially to couples who are not in a financial position to pay for it or bankroll it on their own, but really want to experience the surrogacy journey.

And so another shout out to men having babies or a wonderful international resource for same sex couples that are trying to have. Children. Um, That's great. Due to, it's, it's, um, private donations that are helping to enable all families. Mm-hmm. to. [00:20:00] To build their family through this option if that's what 

Jeff Angeles: they want.

Yeah, I mean I think that that's great. Going back to like the SoFi question earlier, it is a personal loan, so they didn't, in that route, they didn't ask what you're using the money for. So it was more like a black and white sort of like assessment of your ability to pay off the loan. I know there are.

Companies that do specialize in financing surrogacy journeys. We went with, with our, the, that particular financial institution because of the interest rate in more financial set for us. Right, right. Like, Like the maximum that we could take out, you know, was really enough to jumpstart the journey. I mean, I think for anyone, also, we tell other couples that want to like go through the surrogacy journey, you don't need that.

You know, like there is a total cost to everything, but you don't need to have all of that in the beginning. 

Brandy Breth: Well, that's what I was wondering about. Your story. Did part of [00:21:00] that, um, code to the IVF and the surrogacy, were you able to split that up? Okay. Mm-hmm. , right? A hundred thousand or whatever loan. Yeah, I'd like, Did that cover?

Jeff Angeles: Mm-hmm. , I'd like to think about the cost. Like there's several big or like chunks to it. There's Okay. The, um, the fee that you pay, the fertility clinic. is that not, in our case, it's not covered by insurance, so it's out of pocket, 

Mark Angeles: which is another really big topic. Right. 

Brandy Breth: Ah, we'll see that for another podcast.

Yeah, totally. 

Jeff Angeles: Yeah. So there's the, the medical clinic, there's the fees that you pay for the surrogate, for the, just, we call it the exactly carrier. Mm-hmm. that the other term used. Um, can you say 

Brandy Breth: that one more time just cuz it broke up? Yeah. 

Jeff Angeles: Gestational carrier. The, just the gestational. Yeah. In, in. Oh, that's not, That's in 

Mark Angeles: surrogacy

Yeah. People 

Brandy Breth: need to know the language. 

Jeff Angeles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Then the insurance, we [00:22:00] had to pay for our gestational carriers or surrogates insurance. Mm-hmm. , some don't need because some gestational carriers, if you're lucky, if they're working and they have insurance, some insurance plans. Honor surrogacy. They do cover surrogacy, but ours didn't.

So we had to Okay. Get her as sort of like a secondary plan to cover that. And then, you know, other costs along the way. 

Brandy Breth: How did you pick which, um, was gonna hold your baby? How did you pick this surrogate? 

Mark Angeles: The surrogate? I mean, I, I should, we should mention that our journey was a very, Difficult journey and, uh, it took us three years.

Um, and everything that could have went wrong went wrong in our journey. Specific to how did we choose the surrogate? Um, well, [00:23:00] we actually had to go through two surrogates because we worked with one surrogate for an entire year, and. We, we could not get pregnant. Uh, the, the, the IVF trans, well, not to go into too many details, but it just mm-hmm.

it wasn't medically compatible. And so we worked with her for a year. She was lovely. We had great relationship and um, but it just wasn't happening. And so after a year of time and financial commitment, we had to move on to another surrogate and got. And, and our second surrogate was able to get pregnant and deliver Margo.

They think the factors that we look into when we were picking a surrogate is obviously a healthy lifestyle. There are technical things. Um, uh, successful previous births, there's a number of factors. What else you wanna mention in terms of the factors? 

Jeff Angeles: We found our [00:24:00] surrogate through a surrogacy agency.

Mm-hmm. , so, Oh, okay. He did assist us in finding and vetting and sort of like doing the pre-screen great. Mm-hmm. for, you know, for gestational carriers. So both surrogates that we worked with were recommended by, uh, a, uh, agency. Uh, in particular we went with Same Love Surrogacy. Um, Yeah. So which is 

Mark Angeles: another cost component that you have to I 

Brandy Breth: was just thinking that.

Yeah. 

Mark Angeles: Yeah. They're kind of like a general contractor when you're remodeling a home. Mm-hmm. , they kinda manage the whole, that's their expert, the whole building and construction project. And they also. They recruit surrogates and they match surrogates with parents. Yeah. But 

Jeff Angeles: they help facilitate a lot, you know, like, sort of like, cuz you know, we've never gone through the process.

So they were helpful in exactly sort of like giving us like guidance on the step by step how we chose our surrogate. What, what are [00:25:00] the fact, I think general health, of course we wanted mm-hmm. . I, I think age is also a, a factor. Um, you know, cuz you know, it's, you know, less complications. Um, with, with, I guess with younger gestational carriers.

Surrogates also got given birth before. Yeah. Um, okay. Um, what else? Um, yeah, and like what, what Mark said living situation. Living situation, stable. Will she have enough support when going through the process? , you know, you don't wanna learn that, you know, your surrogate, you know, carrying your baby is under a lot of stress.

Mm-hmm. during the Yeah. Lifestyle. 

Brandy Breth: Yeah. Yeah. Was it like a blind date when you guys met? 

Mark Angeles: Um, it, it is like online dating. When the egg donor, when choosing your egg donor and also selecting your surrogate, it is a little bit like online dating with the surrogate. Specifically, the agency sends you a profile, [00:26:00] you read the profile, they read your profile, and if both parties agree, then there's a meeting and Oh yeah, 

Brandy Breth: that's right.

They have to choose you too. . 

Jeff Angeles: Yeah. Yeah. We have to, 

Flo Speakman: No, no forced pregnancies. Yeah. 

Brandy Breth: I'm really listening into this like newly, I'm really taking this in. 

Mark Angeles: Cause it's, it's gotta be, you have to build a healthy relationship and environment mm-hmm. for the child to grow, um mm-hmm. and be delivered healthy. Um, and so a key to this and you know, is for all women who are caring children, Low stress, right?

And low stress environment is what we want to create. That was important in establishing our relationship. Plus, 

Jeff Angeles: I think, you know, when we did our Skype, uh, our, our interview, our, you know, on it was video, like through a video. We didn't meet them in person, um, ever. It was just getting, you know, Like interview each other.

It's sort of like, I guess, yeah, [00:27:00] virtual dating, you have to get a sense of what is this person like? I'm sure she's also kind of like sizing us up, like, can I work with this couple? Can you know? Will they, Yeah. Fuck hers. Will they be like overly overbearing during the pregnancy? Will they micromanage everything or will they give me enough sort of like trust and you know, can I.

Myself working with this couple, let's say the next nine months. That's a good 

Flo Speakman: point. Minimum. Minimum, Minimum. Nine months. Right. 

Jeff Angeles: Think of that with both our, our surrogates after we, we spoke with them, we left with like, you know, a good like Yeah. I mean I think, you know, definitely I would trust her to, you know, carry our child and we mm-hmm.

see us having sort of like a, a good relationship even after the birth. Cuz we decided, like with our child, with Margo, We wanna be fully like, transparent with if she had any questions. Mm-hmm. as she gets older, like, you know, who, like, who's the egg owner? [00:28:00] Who's the mm-hmm. . Um, you know, the lady who like helped give birth to me.

We chose women who would be willing to answer those. If, let's say in the future Margot wants to meet and talk to, Yeah. So. Wow. 

Brandy Breth: Mm-hmm. , that's all that took take into consideration. Yeah. 

Flo Speakman: It's pretty special. So, yeah. Could everyone, So, so you didn't, you didn't meet the surrogate until, when did you actually like meet her in person?

Mark Angeles: Uh, when we embryo trans en embryo, embryo trans, so, okay. After the, uh, embryos were created and the start of ivf, 

Flo Speakman: so you got to go to the, the prenatal appointments and ultrasounds and all of, I was just, 

Brandy Breth: Yeah. Right. When I, Cause when I talk about prenatal in this context, it's all, it's all encompassing with you guys.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. We're gonna have enough conversations with prenatal like women, How is your belly? How's you feeling? You know, this is like, how is your prenatal [00:29:00] experience with the surity and the emotions and the feelings? Cause you guys are getting ready to be 

Mark Angeles: your parents. With our first surrogate, I guess the silver lining there is that we never.

Got to a point where we were, we were given the green light to transfer an embryo, and therefore we never lost any embryos. Mm-hmm. with the first surrogate, again, the uterine lining was just not getting to a level of thickness that our doctor felt was. , uh, gonna allow for a successful birth. 

Brandy Breth: Oh, so the doctor knew or had mm-hmm.

Mark Angeles: Okay. Yeah. So that one is a silver lining. Wow. He was the one monitoring the whole situation. I see. The one saying, Okay, yes, we can proceed and, and transfer in embryo. And so we moved, like I said, to the second surrogate. Um, and actually unfortunately with that one, we experienced. Well, it's not 

Jeff Angeles: technically like a miscarriage, I guess.

Like we had [00:30:00] to do, uh, embryo transfer three times with our second circuit, the first attempt at embryo transfer. She had done, um, like a urine pregnancy test at home and a few days after transfer, it turned out positive, so I think she told Friday. And so we were so excited, like, oh my, my gosh. You know, we're finally after like two years of trying, like we're finally.

only to learn the week after that, it was a false positive, so she wasn't actually pregnant in the first attempt. And then the second attempt didn't also, the, the embryo also didn't implant. It took three times, and the third time, finally, third. Third time's a charm. 

Flo Speakman: Well, and, and, and yay science, right? Like, yay.

Science . Yes. 

Brandy Breth: Yeah. Um, and then, and then the, Okay, so then, and then [00:31:00] the, the, the news, the big news. What was it like with the big news when said, we're pregnant, ? 

Jeff Angeles: Well, I found out first. Mm-hmm. , I was at work and we knew the news was coming that day. Any moment, cuz they tell you five days later after transfer you would do like a, like a blood test to confirm pregnancy all day.

I was just like waiting. The phone was like, just waiting for. A text or call or anything, and I was in the middle of a meeting and my team knew that I was waiting for the news. When my phone rang, I just went, You know, they know that, Oh, go, go, go. They knew what it was about. So I went into my office and my heart was racing and you know, cuz I don't know, like I'm racing myself for whatever news, cuz this is the third time where, and then our doctor, um, uh, shout out to Dr.

Dank at San Diego Fertility Center. He went on FaceTime and, um, gave, uh, gave me the news. They was [00:32:00] certainly like a celebratory day. And then of course I told Mark right away. Yeah. But I, 

Mark Angeles: you know, I will say that. I was on pins and needles until we were able to get Margo home. I just knew I needed to brace myself for just everything that, um, you know, could possibly be thrown our way.

And so I don't think I really exhaled until we got Mar. And fast forward, I mean, Brandy, you know this, Margo was born premature. She spent 30 days in the nicu. Um, it was again, our story, looking back on it now. Was such a, like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. Um, but it's worth it. , right? 

Brandy Breth: Uh, but, um, were you guys prepared for nicu?

No. 

Jeff Angeles: No, not at all. Me. 

Brandy Breth: I wasn't 

Mark Angeles: [00:33:00] either. There was no indication that. Our second surrogate would deliver prematurely, and then here comes Margo. And two months early. Two months early. She's been the NICU for 30 days. But I will in San Diego. So I will also share, you know, and talk about like the universe really, or in our situation, God really kind of watching out for us.

Our surrogate delivered Margot on a Monday, Monday. She was checked out Wednesday, on Wednesday and then Friday she got in a really bad car accident on freeway. Her car actually flipped upside down and she was rushed back into the hospital. So there was no expectation that this baby was gonna come early.

Um, but you know that, that that car, 

Jeff Angeles: no major injuries. But the thought 

Mark Angeles: she was supposed to be pregnant. She was supposed to be seven months, [00:34:00] seven months pregnant, 30, 30. She was supposed to be 34 weeks that Saturday. 

Jeff Angeles: Yeah. And I, I don't know what would've happened if that accident happened while she was pregnant.

So, you know, then it made sense like an oh, that's why. I mean, that's how we're taking it. Margo came out sooner than we expected is because, you know, it was maybe just protecting her. Mm-hmm. , 

Brandy Breth: That's the empowering, that's the empowering context for me. So, And 

Flo Speakman: Margo's good now? Like, No. And 

Mark Angeles: she is, she's in, uh, daycare, preschool.

Completely caught up and thriving. And 

Brandy Breth: how is postpartum for you guys in the first couple weeks, months, even to this day? as fathers as new daddies. The 

Jeff Angeles: 30 days though, in the nicu, you know, and mind you, it was like in the middle of the first several months Covid, the pandemic of Covid. Oh my God. 

Brandy Breth: Okay, so when was Marco born?

Let's put that in. Hello? That's a big part of it. I forgot. 

Jeff Angeles: Yes. August, 2020. 

Brandy Breth: Mm-hmm. 

Flo Speakman: before. Before vaccinations. [00:35:00] 

Brandy Breth: Before. Oh yeah, we Panda babies. Yeah. Yeah. All. Yeah. 

Jeff Angeles: It's got the call that our surrogates water broke, and so we rushed down to San Diego that evening. Um, she was, you know, starting to dilate and she, we were being given updates and we were worried that we wouldn't be around for the delivery because at that time, the hospital.

Had like rules that the your companion going into the hospital will be your companion for the rest of your hospital stay. So we had to like appeal to the nursing staff and they were considerate of that situation knowing, you know, so they allowed one of us, um, you know, they had to go through the chain of command and they made an exception.

So I ended up going to the delivery. I probably got there maybe. 20 minutes maybe. Before Margot was born, the hospital finally allowed a switch of companions. We had to wait at the [00:36:00] lobby, wait for our surrogates partner to exit the lobby, and then I switched. For him and they were very nice. I was escorted to the delivery room and you know, it was definitely one of the most memorable moment, but we were both allowed in the nicu.

And to, to your point, your original question about postpartum, you know, it was a blessing, you know, to be able to at least even like learn a lot in that 30 days of Margo being the nicu, the nurses amazing. Shout to the nurses. Mary Birch the perfect place. I think for Margot to be born in, I'm a physician, but I am not a pediatrician, so I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I'm a geriatrician. I take care of, um, I guess other people in diapers. Um, , Um, yeah, so they were instrumental, like what to watch out for, how to feed the baby, how to bathe the baby, how [00:37:00] to swaddle. It was a very, a lot of hands on, I think, which we would never have gotten. If Margo was born full term and after a couple of days, then we're like, Okay, here's your baby.

Figure this 

Brandy Breth: out while she was a NICU for you guys to really take in, okay, now that we can settle down, now she's a nicu. This is what we're gonna do while she's in NICU to be prepared. Mm. How was that for you guys? 

Mark Angeles: It was so complicated. Ugh. I get emotional thinking about it. She was so little. She was 4, 5, 4 0.66 ounces, ounces, and she had wires all.

Tied up in her and incubator. Incubator and, um, I understand. And I, you know, and so we're based in LA and like Jeff mentioned, Margo was born in a hospital in San Diego. I had started my parental paternity leave and Jeff had to go back to work. Right. [00:38:00] And so I really, we, we went home. I really couldn. Exhale just yet, because what ended up happening is I, I drove down to San Diego every day, um, and then drove back home to LA for a week at night.

Um, Wow. 

Jeff Angeles: Uh, for how long? A week. About a week. And then I started my leave. 

Mark Angeles: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so it was, uh, It felt like longer than a week. Are you sure it was a week? It was just a week. A week. Um, yes. I would drive 

Brandy Breth: time and time and space is 

Mark Angeles: all. Yeah. But, um, I was just on an adrenaline rush. Shout out to the NICU and the people at the NICU and, and I would get there in the morning.

And I would, I was their little apprentice intern. Right. . And I like, All right, I'm here. Did I do? And they would put me to work. Like I would have to gosh, uh, change not only the diaper, but the wires and, [00:39:00] and, and take her temperature Wow. Wa and nurse and bathe. And, and I would stay there all day. And then I would drive home at night, and then I would report back to Jeff how it went and what we learned and what we're seeing.

There were times in the nicu. She would stop breathing and then all the alarms are going off and Oh my gosh. And I'm trying to feed her and then she stops breathing or she's throwing up. And uh, it was Oh, just really intense. It was really intense. We couldn't, And then, and then Jeff started his leave, and then we, we were based down there for the week.

Mm-hmm. . Um, it was, uh, yeah. So. Yeah, it 

Brandy Breth: just, oh my God. That's like, Mark, don't wonder you couldn't exel your second. 

Mark Angeles: So when we got her home, even though she was super tiny, um, we had been through that, the [00:40:00] bootcamp of being in the NICU and being at home. I was able to finally breathe. And it's funny cuz my, my mom and my dad were, uh, either, they're about an hour away from us and so they, they were, you know, they were the family members that saw Margot when she came home.

And my mom had three boys. Right. And you would think she's very accustomed to be, but both of them were very kind of, Nervous at how small mm-hmm. she was. And the whole time we're like, Doesn't she look great? She's like five pounds now. And they were like, uh, 

Brandy Breth: compared to what? You know, when she 

Mark Angeles: was Yeah.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I, she, at four and a half, I was just like, She's so big now and she's growing and so. We were able to finally breathe once we got her home. And she was 

Jeff Angeles: Somewhat, Somewhat, yeah. Yeah. Cause I think the first few weeks, 

Mark Angeles: but no, nothing near 

Jeff Angeles: what it was like. Right. Like the nicu. But you know, the.

[00:41:00] Sort of like the physician side of me like was like, well you know, I had this Bluetooth pulse X exhibitor to monitor her oxygen. Of course that's a continuously, There was like this little like, like stock that monitors her oxygen. Mm-hmm. 24 7. Yeah. 

Brandy Breth: And does that drive you nuts Mark? Or you're like Oh, I'm glad my husband no knows how to take care 

Mark Angeles: of I was God cuz I was worried she would stop breathing too.

Jeff Angeles: So we 

Flo Speakman: had this, I still worry. I have a 12 year old. I still worry 

Brandy Breth: about her scratching, breathing, 

Flo Speakman: routinely walk into her room while she's sleeping and be like, She's 

Brandy Breth: still breathing. I know. Never ends. 

Jeff Angeles: Now. Doesn't, never ends. So it was good cuz it was this device that will alert you, go to your phone also for oxygen dip.

Mm-hmm. had the light on that. Just sit next to me at my bedside table and I, you know, in the middle of the night, I would just open my eyes, you know, As long as it's blinking. Okay. We're good. We're good. ? Yeah, it's blinking. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. . So that gave us some level of sort of like peace of mind security.

Mm-hmm. , I think any parent, first time [00:42:00] parent I'm sure will attest the first few months of like scheduled nursing and, and, and, mm-hmm. sleepless nights and. , you know, just worrying, what is this, what, you know, she's gassy. Why is she crying? , you know, is she tolerating the feeding? Like yeah. A lot of these, like, you know, you, you can try to read as much as you can, but you know nothing.

Exactly, 

Mark Angeles: yeah. For 

Jeff Angeles: the day to day. Yep. Yeah. And it's 

Brandy Breth: just great to hear from the horse's mouth, from people that are experiencing things. Cause my vision for this was, you know, we're late at night feeding our babies, watching maybe this video podcast or listening. Right. Okay. Um, I don't how you listen to headphones without the baby.

Listen, but you know, cuz you watch things at night, you see the, we read the subtitles. That's what I did. But just to have this access for people to be like, Oh, I wanna watch this couple, this, um, family that, Made their family this way and this is what I wanna do, or this is what I wanna learn about. So yeah, having you share the stories is [00:43:00] great.

Thank you. Um, I know personally sharing with Mark, you experienced some postpartum, um, I don't know if you would say it was a postpartum baby, blues, postpartum depression. I had my experience of postpartum depression coming later. Mm-hmm. , along with my first, with Sebastian. Um, can you share a little bit how emotionally postpartum, and I say this in all context because you have the baby , this is your baby, you are the ones that are now raising, having 24 7.

Um, The emotional toll or whatnot. Can you share a little bit about that? And I know from Mark sharing would also, Jeff, if you wanted, share some of that too. Mm-hmm. , like how was it then, and how is 

Jeff Angeles: it now? I think the first few months were, you know, different because in the sense like Mark, like Mark took on the brunt of baby care.

Um, because he was at home. He had six months of parental leave. I wish I had it. I, Wow. 

Mark Angeles: Which is amazing. Yeah. Wow. Good for your 

Flo Speakman: company. Good for your company, Mark. Right? Um, yeah. And that 

Mark Angeles: was for both women and men. Yeah, [00:44:00] it is. That's amazing. It is crazy to, to still see, um, Wow. The, the, what is the word? Like the, just the difference that companies are offering, women versus men.

I mean, and, and also, To how little, how little time they're giving to both women and men. But yes, this company was giving almost six months to both women and men. And, and Jeff, you got, what, two weeks? Mm-hmm. , right? Two 

Flo Speakman: weeks is two weeks for paternity leave to standard California. 

Mark Angeles: Yeah. Ah, okay. So yeah, I had the time to really be at home and, and take on the whole, uh, care, you know?

Yeah. But it 

Jeff Angeles: was exhausting, you know? Mm-hmm. like, You know, was exhausted. Mm-hmm. understandably, and each day bleeds into, it's almost like the same thing day in, and that mm-hmm. Mark is a very outgoing, dynamic guy as you know, Brandy, like, you know mm-hmm. having that day to [00:45:00] day become, I mean, I would say like, I guess monotonous incidents vary the same, you know, took, takes a toll on your mental wellbeing.

Mm-hmm. , you know, 

Brandy Breth: Yeah. Because there's no, again, no like kind of books that say, Oh, your life is totally gonna transition. Not from a single person to a parent, but like, who you were, your identity before you 

Mark Angeles: were a parent. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you know, and also how the, the, the relationship between the couple changes.

Yeah. Like, Even to this day, I'm, or even now, Margo's two, a little over two years and I'm like, Oh, I miss my partner still. You know, I miss like, cuz we used to be able to go and do everything together now. . Now sometimes like we have to do a lot of it separately for efficiency reasons, right? Cuz Margo stays at home, one has to stay at home and the other one goes and runs errands.

And I, and I miss, you know, going to target with my partner and just like spending hours going up and down 

Brandy Breth: the roaming every aisle [00:46:00] I , every single, even the aisle you don't need to be in, you just get to get in . 

Mark Angeles: And it's not even just about like, I mean, yeah, date night, I miss date night amigo. But just like, again, like being able.

Just spend the whole day with, with your partner and, and yes, Mark was getting older now, so we're able to do things together as a family. But you know, as, as when the baby's little, it's like, You're, you're basically changed to the house, right? And so mm-hmm. . Yeah. 

Jeff Angeles: And we made the decision for, for us to do some sort of sleep training with Margo.

Mm-hmm. . So we really tried to stick to this program, which points out for everybody what for us. That's what we decided to 

Brandy Breth: do. I think that's great. Brian and I decided to do that too. I had to actually had an interve and I'll, you know, I'll share my story eventually. Mm-hmm. , but I had an intervention of, People like you need to sleep.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , sleep deprivation, again, not very talked about a lot. Mm-hmm. like, Oh, it's like common. You're never gonna, never gonna sleep for the rest of your life. Yeah. Great. Ha ha ha. No. Like medically, you know, [00:47:00] like , that's not healthy. Not healthy. 

Mark Angeles: Yeah, that's right. 

Jeff Angeles: So around five months when Margo started sleeping through the night, that was like night and they're like, Oh my God.

Oh my gosh. We're, can actually like, get back to like normal sleep schedule for now and it's night and day, like, you know, you can find more clearly, um, during the day. But 

Mark Angeles: I, I do feel like even now, like at least for me, sleep, sleep is, will never be the same. Mm-hmm. . It's never, No, never. Right. As they get.

And I'm like, Did you sneak out the house? Or like, is 

Brandy Breth: that like a stress, No sleep. It's more like worry and no sleep. What? 

Flo Speakman: It's, But it is, it's, and, and you sleep more lightly, right? Like as a parent, That's what I've noticed is like I don't sleep as deeply as I used to. Oh. Like I did before. Just, just because like you hear everything you hear.

Wait, what was that? 

Brandy Breth: Yeah. Well, . [00:48:00] Yep. Well, now being a parent, oh my God, if my parents listened to this podcast, I'm like, No wonder my stepdad said he could hear everything. Cuz if I s when I stuck out, he was quite worried about, Yeah. As a parent, I'm like, yeah, he was definitely worried. No wonder as a could never sleep.

Ever. Never. Yeah. So, yeah, never. Oh my gosh. Flo, do you have anything else? I mean, we're gonna start wrapping it up, but Yes. I mean, of course I wonder you guys have the, um, freedom to share anything too that you wanna share with our listeners and viewers. 

Flo Speakman: I'm just really grateful. I mean that for me, that's the thing.

I'm super grateful that you guys decided to have shared your story multiple times and are willing to be open to share how Margo came to be. And, you know, I wish I could see her, but we'll, we'll get there at some point. It's, it's be. It's amazing. It's lovely. I'm excited. So you've got embryos, I'm assuming you have some left out there in the world.

Yeah. And so you have decisions to make about that too? Like what's gonna happen Yeah. To those potential humans? We have only one [00:49:00] 

Mark Angeles: left. Um Oh, okay. So yeah, we, 

Brandy Breth: we, Oh, I didn't now say I forgot. I mean, so the age old question, Are you guys gonna have another or try another for that last embryo? 

Jeff Angeles: We were, eh, we would love 

Mark Angeles: to, we would love to if money wasn't an issue, right?

Mm-hmm. , again, going back to the point that we were talking about, like just to get the baby, I mean, our journey was, we were really transparent. It was about total 180, almost 200. 

Flo Speakman: Yeah. About almost $200,000. Yeah, that's what I remember from reading. It was like 160 or something, just out the box. So, um, it's crazy.

Brandy Breth: Well, I mean, I've heard the story and I'm still like, again, I got, you know, emotional, just hearing it again. And, and I hope that part of this too is, is a process of continuing, how was the word? Um, an ongoing process of healing. Mm-hmm. and acknowledging what amazing human beings you guys are. Oh. And just a [00:50:00] healing as parents that we always need that, um, reassurance of like, you got this.

Mm-hmm. . The process that it took to get here. I hope that's also what this, uh, talking like this could provide 

Mark Angeles: too. Yes. Yes. You, you, Thank you for, for saying that flow and brandy, and to me brandy, that that really resonates what you said because, um, the interest in our story and, and the, the emotional response that both of you are giving us right now, I think it makes us feel so welcomed in this world, in this community.

Right.

Flo Speakman: Oh my God. I started tearing up.

Oh my God. Oh my God. That's hyster this in 

Brandy Breth: the, Oh yeah. That's. Oh, that was [00:51:00] funny. It like knows like when we're getting, I 

Flo Speakman: swear. Yeah. No, but I, I absolutely believe that, that there's a, there's a piece. 

Brandy Breth: Oh my God, you guys, I know. That's so funny, right? Where we're like getting 

Mark Angeles: on. Yeah. I do really wanna, I really want say that, um, you, I just feel so welcomed by the community.

Parents that are out there. Um, and I'm so hopeful that Margo will live an, an excellent life and thrive, and it's because of, of people like you who are interested and support and care and see, really see the love. That permeates in our family and and other unique family situations. Right. And so we're going through some really different times.

in the world. Yes, we are. Yeah. [00:52:00] You know, the kind of moments, remind me we are. Much more similar than we are different, right? A hundred percent. We're all just here to love and, and be our best selves and, and create a world that our children can be our best selves. And so I'm very touched with this project and I'm very touched that you guys are so interested.

Yeah. So thank you. 

Jeff Angeles: Yeah, thank you. And you know, in our sharing, that's why we're. Open and, and, and excited to share our story, you know, because we stand on like the shoulders of other people also who've gone before us and have shared their stories and how they serve as a, you know, some comfort and feeling of like, support that we can get through this, all the ups and downs and so in any way that we can pay it forward for any mm-hmm.

Couple or people. Mm-hmm. , like even if you're like a single person, Right. Who wants to go through the surrogacy [00:53:00] process? 

Mark Angeles: An inner mm-hmm. couple. Any 

Jeff Angeles: sex couple like, and right, like that, you know, if you decide to grow your family and, and welcome a child into your family, whatever means. You go through surrogacy adoption, whatever, that this decision of raising a child and bringing a child into your family, you know, is really born out of love.

Mm-hmm. , and you know, anything that's born out of love and, and, and really rooted in that. Can only result in good. And you know, I think one of the things that, you know, going even like, like to be full circle when we first decided to have Margo is one of the considerations was in the theme of what Mark said was legacy, is that, well, if we have the capacity to bring into this world a person who can serve as a force for good in any way, small or, or big, you know, then we've done.

Yeah, we've done our job. You know, I think, you know, um, that's really [00:54:00] important for us. That's why we were always welcomed the opportunity to just share the, the story. So like, it may inspire other people, or at least like people who are actually in this journey right now, can hear that. You know, it may not be a smooth journey like ours, but in the end, hopefully you can experience the joy and also the ups and downs of, of, of parent, but all the good things that it brings into your life.

All the good. Yes, all the good. All the good 

Brandy Breth: you guys. Thank you so much for sharing your delivery diary. Yeah, thank you. It is really a privilege. It's 

Mark Angeles: an honor more power and success to you both. 

Flo Speakman: Thank you. Thank you.